[Mono-osx] Mono 1.1.0 Cocoa# + MWF

Ron Braithwaite ron at braithwaites.net
Tue Nov 22 12:26:43 EST 2005

First off, thank you for your efforts, Kangaroo. I truly appreciate  
what you are doing and I do understand that this is a labor of love  
that you are doing in your spare time.

On Nov 22, 2005, at 7:01 AM, kangaroo wrote:
> Second, I'll believe anything on Gtk+-osx when I start seeing the  
> source; but even then its not a native look and feel so to me this  
> isn't a solution.  As for Gtk 2.10 having a quartz driver; its  
> backed by cairo and I've worked on the current cairo-quartz  
> surface; and I can tell you it needs some love before using it for  
> Gtk+ on OSX as a full windowing system (MWF-OSX uses it today and  
> its less than ideal).  I have suggested from day one that people  
> abstract their GUI layer from their (I hate this phrase) "business  
> logic" and build a Gtk# frontend for linux; SWF for win32; Cocoa#  
> for Mac.
> What does this leave?  Cocoa# and ObjectiveC#.  If you want to be  
> fully managed; use Cocoa#.  If you like IB/ObjC for your  
> presentation layer use ObjectiveC#.  The latter is available in SVN  
> today.

The problem with this approach is that *very* few IT people  
deliberately write code to be portable. In fact, in most IT  
departments, developers are _forbidden_ to put any significant extra  
effort into cross-platform portability. At the same time, they will  
write portable code if they know which classes to avoid, etc.

The BIG attraction of Mono is to enable the heterogeneous  
environment, where Windows, Linux, and Mac systems are all first  
class citizens. This is why I jumped on the Java bandwagon early on.  
There are some issues with Java, however (e.g., JNI is not a  
reasonable way to incorporate unmanaged code). The CLR addresses  
those issues very nicely and I anticipate has great long term value.

But the long term value Mono and the CLR represent is diminished  
greatly by not having a cross-platform GUI framework. Cocoa# and  
ObjectiveC# are not really very interesting for me in my work. I am  
*VERY* pleased that Gtk 2.10 will have a Quartz driver. That really  
does address my concern and that really does make cross-platform  
development practical ***From The Point Of View Of IT Management***.  
I cannot stress that last point enough.

If we want to see Linux/FOSS/Mac OSX platforms be able to stand along  
side Windows, we need to be able to offer a standard mechanism that  
can easily be embraced in corporate environments. With that ready  
acceptance, our favorite platforms will start making inroads  
elsewhere. None of us may like the idea that corporate acceptance is  
what drives school and home usage, but that is what got Windows the  
dominant position that it currently has. And that dominant position  
is what has stifled innovation. Mono offers us the opportunity to  
introduce true innovation again. But that will only happen if there  
is a truly cross-platform way to develop GUI applications.

> As for more "users" than "hackers"; since none of these tools are  
> "prime-time ready"; I personally dont see how any user could truly  
> be using them.  The OSX MWF driver doesn't even have true keyboard  
> support, let alone supporting control clipping for overlapping  
> controls; so how can it be used?  As for Cocoa# 0.2; no one has  
> piped up and shown me a released app running it; so the same holds  
> (mostly) true.

Speaking as  a potential user of Mono and not able to be a hacker (I  
was years ago, but now I have a very busy life outside of my work),  
my comments are as a potential Mono user developer and not as a Mono  
"kernel" developer. So please take these comments as suggestions and  
my rationale for these suggestions.

Also, it is theoretically possible for me to be very patient if I  
understand the long term road map. Knowing *where* the project is  
going will keep me involved over the long term and later in the game  
I may be able to contribute some work.

Again, thanks for everyone's efforts on this!


Ron Braithwaite
2015 NE 37th Ave
Portland, OR 97212 USA
ron at braithwaites.net

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