[MonoDevelop] Comments on Stetic GU designer

[ml]

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 09:44 -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> JimD wrote:
> > Mario Carrión wrote:
> >   
> >> Currently, that Container isn't shown in the Containers list and it
> >> won't (probally) be due to disadvantages commented earlier, you may
> >> request that feature to Core MonoDevelop developers to add it in future
> >> releases, however I don't support adding that behavior.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> ---
> >> Mario Carrión
> >>     
> >
> > Is there a way to add it?  Why can't you let developers make their own
> > choice?  Isn't that part of what Linux and Open Source is about?
> >
> >
> >   
> I agree, if there are core developers reading this, please add the
> fixed container so those of us that are used to win32 development
> can have something that is similar.
> 

Fixed container is special purpose container and it is not intended to
be used like delphi forms.

> I don't want to hear "You have the source" fix it yourself either, I am
> not a monodevelop hacker and by the time the learning curve is out of
> the way I would have wasted a ton of time, so let's not start the you 
> have the source thing. (I only mention this because every time I have 
> pointed out a shortcoming in a open source project someone will say it)
> 

Actually it is the way it is. You can't expect developers to jump on
every wish one would pose. Where would they get the time? And everybody
has its own goals as primary.

Believe me, every time someone says a comment like this god kills a
developer.

> I am sorry(not trying to start a flame war) but the whole panel way of 
> building a GUI is not intuitive at all and makes designing a simple GUI 
> a huge pain in the rear. A better solution would be to have 

Yep, and when you get to China you probably expect all people will start
speaking your language by default so you won't be confused

> anchor/alignment properties or something similar for the fixed panel, so 

Well, been there and escaped with screaming, never more

> I can make a edit control resize if I want to, that's how it's done in 
> Delphi and VS.net. Also in Delphi I can put a panel and I can set 
> alignment properties if I want stuff to resize automatically, for 
> example I can put a panel and align it to bottom, add a splitter then 
> another panel and align that to client.  The fact that MonoDevelop tries 
> to force the whole panel thing is ridiculous.

I'm ex-Delphi developer. And I can tell you my story with gtk.

First few days I was bitchin' which stupid mtrfkr invented this stupid
glade and layouting with containers. (excuse me, but it is how it was)

Then I found Fixed container so it was more like I was used to. Well,
let me be the first to point out but Fixed is way from the perfect
handling and you will every time end up with hacks. It misses way too
much functionality to produce anything but completely screwed up design.

After this second no-go (running into it didn't work, Fixed didn't
either) I took the only option available. I actually tried to adapt my
self and my thinking. Well, this one worked. A painful week, I have to
say it. But all I can say now is "it was more than worth every minute".
Now any kind of fixed layout is automatically excluded as stupid in my
mind.

What I have learned with this:
- Delphi designer is easier to start some form, gtk demands more careful
planing (but after a few forms you actually start to get it from the
first)
- As soon as modifications come in question (and they always do, because
you have to maintain your software), Delphi requires tab ordering,
moving controls and placing actual controls inside and resizing the
form, not a minute job I can tell from my experience (and god forbid you
had to translate form into another language). In gtk? Not even a minute
for all those and everything just works.

Now lets look at the problems under Windows.
- You can't change size of the system fonts (try double or triple size)
without screwing 10-20% of the forms.
- Using Windows in other language often results in damaged forms where
text in label is too long and is part under some other control, or all
text is not visible.
- Look how many pieces of software has screwed control order, just
because coder forgot to change order after he changed layout.

Why are these problems so obvious? Because principle is screwed at the
start.

Now lets look at the same under gtk. All three problems at the same time
(fonts changed, other language and changed forms)
Just works, perfect fit.

As a ex-longtime delphi coder I can only say, I don't want to see damn
stupid thing again.

> 
> I love Linux and open source, but the development tools available pale 
> in comparison to Delphi or VS.net (Delphi is the best of course :-)  The
> only one that is close right now would be NetBeans 5.x, sorry the
> eclipse GUI builder stinks.
> 

Delphi is not the best, neither is mono, neither are C or C++ and god
forbid how many languages there are in the wild. The best is the tool
that suits most to the problem you stumbled on. Let me be the one to
tell you: There's no best hammer for every nail. There is just the best
hammer for particular kind of nails

> If Monodevelop is to be a success it needs to be easy to use, think VB 3 
> back in the early 90s.  without a doubt VB 3 is what led to the huge 
> popularity of windows.  The same thing could happen to Gnome and Linux.
> 

Nope, this is why mono implements winforms, this is why Qt exists, this
is why wxWidgets exist.

Why changing something that just works? Use the one that provides you
with the way you want it. For example, you can use mono under windows
and use winforms designer from either sharp-develop or VS and it will
still run crossplatform as you would with gtk.

> Thanks in advance for listening :-)
> 

m.