[Mono-dev] Mono and ASP.NET vNext

Giuliano Barberi gbarberi at aotaonline.com
Thu May 15 19:32:32 UTC 2014 

Would it be possible to make the socket use libuv to listen on multiple
threads for events then just perform whatever work is needed right then and
there instead of scheduling it into the thread pool? This feels closer to
what IOCP are like on Windows though the thread overhead is higher so there
should not be too many threads whereas there are thousands of IO ports. The
problem I see is the Mono having a single thread listening for epoll events
and putting work on the thread pool so if that can be eliminated, we would
be able to use native implementations on top of it for the FastCGI/OWIN
parts.


On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Nikita Tsukanov <keks9n at gmail.com> wrote:

> The main problem that someone have to implement HTTP-server and
> websocket-handling code on top of that, since existing implementations
> (Nowin, websocket implementations on top of XSockets, SuperSockets.NET,
> etc) are bound to thread pool model. I think it's much better to find some
> existing HTTP/WebSocket server library, wrap it and use for hosting
> ASP.NET vNext applications. It will safe a lot of pain. Althrough it's
> possible to patch something like Nowin in a way, that it would be able to
> use both models and switch between them.
>
>
> 2014-05-15 21:59 GMT+04:00 Nikita Tsukanov <keks9n at gmail.com>:
>
>> Now I'm digging the source code and it seems that second one is quite
>> close to what is needed.
>>
>>
>> 2014-05-15 21:51 GMT+04:00 Nikita Tsukanov <keks9n at gmail.com>:
>>
>> There are some existing wrappers:
>>> https://github.com/kersny/libuv-csharp  - Dead, no commits for 3 years
>>> https://github.com/txdv/LibuvSharp - uses Task (
>>> https://github.com/txdv/LibuvSharp/blob/master/Examples/TcpAsync.cs ),
>>> so it should have same problems with thread pool
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-05-15 21:41 GMT+04:00 Greg Young <gregoryyoung1 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> That would make sense as the models are different. Also that libuv
>>>> wrapper from looking looks fairly promising.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Nikita Tsukanov <keks9n at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think we should have something like Mono.Sockets with abstraction of
>>>>> event loop and I/O code based on libuv or whatever, and build classes like
>>>>> HttpListener on top of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-05-15 21:30 GMT+04:00 Nikita Tsukanov <keks9n at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that having libuv behind socket code won't help much, since
>>>>>> most of socket performance problems are related to the fact that
>>>>>> BeginSend/Recieve, event loop and AsyncCallback run in different threads.
>>>>>> Because of that we have overhead even with simple
>>>>>> void ReadNext()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    _socket.BeginRecieve(buf, blablabla, res=>
>>>>>>    {
>>>>>>        _socket.EndRecieve(res);
>>>>>>        ReadNext();
>>>>>>    });
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> On windows that works fine because of IOCP behind that abstraction
>>>>>> that is designed to be used with thread pool. *nix platforms doesn't have
>>>>>> anything like IOCP, only epoll/kqueue, so for actual performance
>>>>>> improvement one have to use single-threaded approach (with round-robin
>>>>>> connection dispatch between workers), when all I/O operations and event
>>>>>> loop run in single thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2014-05-15 20:55 GMT+04:00 Miguel de Icaza <miguel at xamarin.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, i want to see a prototype, and then decide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So this needs to be done with some kind of peer framework where this
>>>>>>> is done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Greg Young <gregoryyoung1 at gmail.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I would say moving both to libuv would be a good move :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Roope Kangas <
>>>>>>>> roope at grandcrugames.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On a tangent...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It would be really nice if something like libuv would the thing
>>>>>>>>> behind Socket code.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could that be something to investigate?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mono could basically piggyback on nodejs development.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Roope Kangas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 15.5.2014, at 15.00, Greg Young <gregoryyoung1 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So the one issue I have seen with the libevent implementation is
>>>>>>>>> that it seems to perform very poorly in windows (+-5k hello worlds/second
>>>>>>>>> where as its closer to 100k/second in linux). From researching libevent
>>>>>>>>> they supposedly now use IOCP in windows and should be better but I have not
>>>>>>>>> been able to make this happen. It may also be worth looking at libuv which
>>>>>>>>> is pretty close to a drop in replacement for libevent as it seems to get
>>>>>>>>> much better performance in windows and similar performance in linux.
>>>>>>>>> @Nikita I will hopefully have some time next week and likely will send some
>>>>>>>>> more pull requests in relation to the memory allocation patterns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Miguel de Icaza <
>>>>>>>>> miguel at xamarin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Nikita!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your approach looks fabulous!   I look forward to trying it out!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Nikita Tsukanov <
>>>>>>>>>> keks9n at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll try to implement OWIN host on top of my libevent built-in
>>>>>>>>>>> http server ( https://github.com/kekekeks/evhttp-sharp ) since
>>>>>>>>>>> for now it's the fastest thing for handling HTTP-requests on Mono I know
>>>>>>>>>>> (now it has host implementation for NancyFx which we are using in
>>>>>>>>>>> production for half of a year).
>>>>>>>>>>> Although both evhttp-sharp and FastCGI servers like HyperFastCGI
>>>>>>>>>>> and Fos, are incapable of serving websockets (one because of underlying
>>>>>>>>>>> implementation, another because of limitations of FastCGI protocol), so it
>>>>>>>>>>> would be great to wrap something like
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/kekekeks/evhttp-sharp which has websocket
>>>>>>>>>>> support and positioned as evhttp drop-in replacement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Nikita
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2014-05-14 19:29 GMT+04:00 Marcelo Zabani <mzabani at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wow! This is such great news!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for running Owin applications with Unix HTTP servers, I've
>>>>>>>>>>>> developed Fos <http://github.com/mzabani/Fos> on a very
>>>>>>>>>>>> permissive license and a focus on good documentation and running with Mono
>>>>>>>>>>>> on *nix. I would very much love getting contributions on this, because my
>>>>>>>>>>>> spare time is running lower these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope it helps,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marcelo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Miguel de Icaza <
>>>>>>>>>>>> miguel at xamarin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello guys!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft has open sourced ASP.NET vNext:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://github.com/aspnet/home
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an entire new web stack that only needs the core of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mono (does not even use System.Web.dll!).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So these are of course great news, because (a) The core Mono
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been in active development, and (b) that means that Mono's on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> server can be used without all those pesky limitations that have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plaguing us for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So we ran into a couple of limitations in Mono: some classes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they need are not implemented (I filed a bug, and a couple of Xamarin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> folks decided to take on that on their copious spare time) and we have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of bugs on FileSystemWatcher on OSX.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But this is a great time to:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - Get involved with the github.com/aspnet project and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    submit contributions that will make the software run on Unix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - Look into technologies like Owin and Katana (sp?) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    help us have a story that plugs into Unix HTTP servers (the equivalent of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    our bridge between Apache and mono: mod_mono, or our Fast CGI bridge to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    mono).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - Take Mono's new profiling tools and performance counters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    for a spin and help us fine tune the runtime to run .NET code faster on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Unix than you can on Windows.  While this is a tall order, my friend David
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Miller would expect nothing less from us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hugs and love,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mono-devel-list mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mono-devel-list at lists.ximian.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Studying for the Turing test
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Mono-devel-list mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Studying for the Turing test
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Studying for the Turing test
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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-- 
Giuliano Barberi
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