[Gtk-sharp-list] DataGrid control, data binding, ObjectViews, Swf, Gtk

Thu Dec 15 09:29:17 EST 2005

Hi,

2005/12/15, Gennadiy Donchyts <don at env.com.ua>:
> Hi Todd,
>
> Thanks for a lot of clarifications :).
>
> On 12/15/05, Todd Berman <tberman at off.net> wrote:
> > Holy Crap.
> >
> > Ok.
> >
> > Give me second while I wade in here with the clue-bat.
> >
> >
> > #1) MD is not strictly GPL.
> >
> > #2) MD is strictly GPL #D code and MIT X11 new code.
>
>
> Is it possible to go from GPL => MIT X11 ... or you consider it as just
> completely different?

It is possible for you to turn from MS EUL => PD, provided that you
are Microsoft.

> > #3) The dock is based on an GPL library, that can be relicensed to the
> > MIT X11 for us. (Jeroen, if I am wrong, feel free to beat me). In fact,
> > we should hunt this down and get it fixed up if it is possible, see
> > point #6.
>
>
> yes, please :), then I could use it too, because I stopped to dig more
> inside when I saw GPL there.
>
> > #4) This 'Novell license' is the MIT X11 license, the only mention of
> > Novell is in the copyright, because it is code written by Lluis as a
> > Novell employee, so Novell owns the copyright. The code is still MIT
> > X11.
>
>
> :))))

Interesting. I didn't know.

> > #5) SWF controls are not easy/helpful to port to gtk# in all honesty. In
> > fact, they suck to port. Everything is pretty different, and you don't
> > want to use System.Drawing on Linux if you can use Cairo directly (imo),
> > and even if you did, its still not a good path to rainbows and puppies.
>
>
> I like to use NPlot, for example, it uses Windows.Drawing, do you know any
> alternative to it in pure Cairo-based Gtk#?
>
> > #6) I have no idea what license the data grid is under, but if it is not
> > MIT X11, it will have to be removed from MD with a quickness. If Daniel
> > can relicense it, great, if he cant/wont, then its toast, we *DO NOT*
> > want to push any license but the MIT X11.
>
>
> Can you give a one short definition of why in your oppinion is MIT X11
> better then i.e. LGPL?
> If there will be some library/widget which is veeeery good and licensed
> under LGPL and
> you'd like to use it in MD will not you miss it?

The difference is freedom, in the real sense.

The free GPL/LGPL licenses allows for _real_freedom_. In other words,
as with all freedoms, there are limits. And it is those limits that
those licenses have. I am free to take my shotgun and shoting animals
on thee wilderness (as long as I am not killing protected specicies
noor in reproduction times), but my freedom stops short of allowing me
to go for a shooting spree on the downtown mall killing anything that
moves, instead.

The more libertine MIT X11 license allows for _real_libertinane_
behaviour. It allows for somebody to take code, lock it away in tight
locks, modify it at will, and then redistribute it with a license of
his own choosing, removing my . With it, I could go the downtown mall
for my shooting spree, but I could also go to the wilderness. This
license is even worst that the libertine New BSD license, because it
would allow somebody to write(?) a proprietary software and then claim
that it is endorsed by me.

> > #7) Mike Kestner is my personal savior. He wrote, maintains, and rocks
> > out (with his cock out) all over gtk#.

Well, I don't care how good Mike is, he is a poor excuse for a
personal savior. Try Jesus instead.

> > #8) Whatever widget library you wonderful people cook up will most
> > likely never be put into gtk# itself. This has been the stance in the
> > past w/ gtk#, and is a sane one. gtk# is a wrapper for gtk+, not a
> > wrapper + extension + other cool widgets. Another library would be a
> > great place for other cool widgets. Now. That said, a single widget
> > library to rule them all is a bad idea. As a developer, I want
> > copy/pastable code. I want to include your source into my app. That
> > makes it easy to update, and easy to deploy. It makes me feel warm, and
> > well loved.
>
>
> If library is "properly" developed - consider it as a repository of all
> useful
> widgets/controls not as a one big library with everything messed up. If
> designing
> and maintaining everything in a good way and keep to some rules - copy paste
> will work just fine ;).
> ... I would consider it as something like lovely widgets set/repository :)).
> .. ok, maybe some additional layer of
> independent utilities/helpers.

Agreed.

>
> > #9) Please dont use the Gtk.Controls namespace. Use a new toplevel, like
> > the rest of gtk#.
>
>
> Yes, I see that it makes no sence now. And in this case it makes even more
> sense to have a
> higher level widgets library since Gtk# is supposed to be as close to Gtk+
> as possible? And
> our subj. is something .NET-stylish, ... and it should be separate for sure.
>
> Some guesses/votes:
>
> 1. Gwl (Gtk# Widgets Library), ... NGwl ;)
> 2. Some short name like nice used for other mono libraries.
> 3. ??

4. Controls

> > #10) As far as looking for widgets for this library, all of
> > MonoDevelop.Components is pretty slick awesomeness.
>
>
> They are nice, but not all is complete as I see. Since there are a lot of
> controls
> which can be designed and implemented separately - I see a big need of such
> library.
> and it will bring more people to Gtk# for sure :).
>
> ... maybe Eclipse / SWT is a nice example of similar approach since ther is
> also separate library for UI
> and another advantage is that it would be easier to maintain it.
>
> An ideal situation would be if people involved in MD development also will
> take part in design and development of such
> a library but at the same time to keep it generic to be used in any other
> application at the same time.
> (I looked only on TreeView in MD and as I know now it also uses some MD
> Services, Commands .
> also not completely easy for copy/paste :)).
>
> > Anyway. This conversation looked like it was going nowhere relatively
> > quickly, and with near terminal velocity.
>
>
> .. it just some thoughts/ideas to make life easier and not to google and
> look for place where it is
> possible to copy/paste each we need some more advanced and nice widget.
>
>
> > Hopefully some of these points
> > can clear some things up. And the other ones that are clearly my opinion
> > can just be taken as words of advice from someone who has been writing
> > gtk# applications for the last 2 years. (Holy crap, Pedro and I did
> > start hacking on MD 2 years ago).
>
>
> Thanks - very informative and usefull :).
>
> --Gena
>
>
>
> > --Todd
> >

And to this, I tip my hat.

Jesus bless you all,

Víctor Rafael Rivarola

--
FANÁTICO
"Por cuanto eres tibio, y no frío ni caliente, te vomitaré de mi boca."
Apocalipsis 3:16

LOCO
"Porque la Palabra de la Cruz es locura para los que se pierden; pero a
los que se salvan, esto es, a nosotros, es poder de Dios."
1 Corintios 1:18