[Mono-list] Re: AW: Re: AW: OSS alternative to ASP.NET for use with Mono?

[Tom]

Richard,

Yes, it is my understanding that Mono/dotNet and ASP.NET are both very 
good.  Hence my interest.

I don't pretend to know how the whole software patent debate will turn 
out, but my issue is not just about patents per se.

EMCA dotNet/Mono is a standard.  For me this has value in of itself, and 
  it also has the practical advantage that the terms under which the 
technology would be licensed are overseen by the EMCA.  If it were to 
become a defacto standard, at least it would be like a regulated 
monopoly, not an unregulated one.

ASP.NET is quite different on this count.  If software patents have any 
degree of legitimacy at all then MS will be making a phone call to 
Novell, and MS will be setting any terms they want.  If you are one of 
those people that you mentioned who don't want to be stuck with Windows 
servers, then you aren't much better off committing yourself to ASP.NET 
because MS could easily force you back to Windows, or force you to use a 
licensed version of Linux where they receive almost all of the revenue 
(call it MS Linux).  To me, that isn't much of an improvement over using 
Windows.

Why don't I just use Java?  First, it is my understanding that 
Mono/ASP.NET are better and I'd prefer to use that which is better if I 
could just rationalize away the nagging doubts.  Also, because Java is 
not open source, nor is it a real industry standard.  It is my 
understanding that, in theory, Sun could do all the same things with 
Java that MS could do with ASP.NET.  For example, if SUNW keeps going 
downhill they could be bought by a company that doesn't feel bound by 
Sun's promises and want to squeeze all the revenue they can out of Java. 
  I don't think this is likely, but it is possible.

Tom.

Richard Matthias wrote:
>>From: mono-list-admin@lists.ximian.com 
>>[mailto:mono-list-admin@lists.ximian.com] On Behalf Of Tom
>>Sent: 07 August 2004 16:18
>>To: Mono-list@lists.ximian.com
>>Subject: [Mono-list] Re: AW: Re: AW: OSS alternative to 
>>ASP.NET for use with Mono?
>>Yes, but this isn't a 'gift'.
>>
>>This is very proprietary, and has network and lock-in effects 
>>that jeeps don't have.
> 
> 
> I'll assume you're referring to the supposed "patent crackdown" that the
> anti-MS crowd are convinced is coming? If you think that that is any more
> than just FUD, surely it applies to the whole of Mono and not just ASP.NET?
> Sure I've heard all the arguments about this ECMA rule about patents, etc.,
> but the news of the last few years should tell you that any technology can
> get hit with a patent claim any time whether it is a clone of a companies
> product or is independently developed. Your best way to avoid risk is to buy
> some of the "very proprietary" software you despise from a large company that
> can afford to defend patent claims from 3rd parties. Free software can never
> be truly free while patents can apply to software. So, either buy your
> software from a big vendor or just ignore the patent issue altogether and get
> on with your life.
> 
> 
>>Besides, Jeeps are too big, take too much gas for my needs, and many are 
>>not very reliable.  I'd prefer a simple, reliable, compact vehicle of some
> 
> sort.
> 
> Great, so use PHP.
> 
> Seriously, what is so compelling about Mono that makes you want to use it
> instead of something else like Java for instance, but not want to use
> ASP.NET?
> 
> 
>>>I don't know much about web programming, as I'm realy a C++ developer, 
>>>but might the long term alternative to ASP.NET be a server API that 
>>>builds and exchanges XAML/XUL with the client?
> 
> 
> Yes, maybe one day, in the future, but even Microsoft don't know where
> they're going down that road yet. ASP.NET is something that works *right now*
> and that trumps arguments about what technology might be the best way to go
> one day.
> 
> If you don't know much about web development maybe you don't know that
> ASP.NET is very compelling technology that moves the game on a long way past
> where ASP was and makes things like ASP, Coldfusion and PHP look a bit
> old-fashioned. Of course people that don't know ASP.NET think that it's just
> "a bit better" than ASP and since things like JSP and PHP4/5 are a lot better
> than ASP, that ASP.NET is a waste of time. They are very wrong. 
> 
> It's more usual for web developers to think "I want to use ASP.NET but I'm
> not sure about having to use Windows Server for my website". Mono has offered
> a great service by allowing people to run ASP.NET apps on Linux. 
> 
> What you are asking for is something 'less good' than ASP.NET just to make
> you feel better about some supposed patent issue.
> 
> 
>>>I'm just surprised that there is no real alternative to the MS API, 
>>>given that there are so many alternatives to the MS API for the 
>>>desktop GUI.
> 
> 
> There are many alternatives to Windows Forms for the desktop API because
> emulating Windows Forms on non-Windows platforms is more than a little
> difficult. And cross-platform GUIs don't necessarily make much sense anyway.
> Web serving is whole different world where it doesn't matter what programming
> language you use or which OS or framework because only HTML is generated so
> there is not really any requirement for anything different from a
> technological perspective anyway.
> 
> Wow, I'm really still trying to get my head round someone wanting to use mono
> to serve web pages but not want to use ASP.NET. I strongly suggest that if
> this hasn't convinced you to learn and use ASP.NET, you should check out JSP
> (Java Server Pages). If you have issues with using Java I'd be surprised if
> they don't also apply to Mono. If Java is to 'heavyweight' for you then use
> PHP. I think that covers all the main alternatives and if you haven't used
> ASP.NET you won't know what you're missing anyway :)
> 
> Regards
> 
> richard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-list maillist  -  Mono-list@lists.ximian.com
> http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
>