[Mono-list] dotGNU banning Mono-List members

Martin Coxall martin.coxall@itouch.co.uk
Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:02:23 +0100

I have been banned from dotGNU mailing lists, by their list-admin, ostensibly 
because I also subscribe to mono-list and want to see the project succeed. It 
seems Mr Bollow has some issues with us. Perhaps you would like to express 
your dissatisfaction at him?


Below follows my last post to the list so you can see his an my positions. 
Pliz judge for yourself.


On Thursday 19 July 2001  3:34 pm, Martin Coxall wrote:

> Since you are a Mono developer I find it unacceptable and
> dishonest that you try to motivate DotGNU developers for helping
> out the Mono project by saying things like "if we helped them".

So, you are already implicitly erecting a wall between dotGNU and Mono by
saying I cannot be both one of "them" and one of "you"? This seems an
ill-advised, dangerous, divisive and foolish attitude to take, IMHO,
indicative of some paranoid fear of a complementary project you perceive as
a threat, and exactly the sort of attitude that has lead to unhelpful

I have already detected a tangible amount of paranoia and bias in you
against Mono, I suspect because it is a technology paid for by Microsoft.
This is not helpful. As an experienced, professional Java developer, I
genuinely believe that Java, as a controlled specification, is morally
unsuitable for dotGNU, and is also technically inferior to .NET.

Morally. This is the key word. It is a matter of principle. I am sorry if
you consider defending matters of principle "unacceptable", but I don't.

You must believe me. I care only for both dotGNU and Mono's future success,
I have no motives other than to see both projects to succeed, and to
enhance each other rather than compete. I am sorry if this doesn't fit into
your paranoid world-view, but there you go.

> There is nothing wrong with a request for help from Mono if it
> reads like "The Mono project would really appreciate if you
> DotGNU folks could help us out."

It read exactly like a request for help. But once again, you let your
paranoia overcome you, into thinking I am some way trying to manipulate
dotGNU, because I dared to use "we" because I have chosen to associate with
dotGNU. Manipulate you how? You think I am microsoft double agent or
something? Please, let's be sensible and realistic about this.

> As listadmin of the dotgnu.org mailing lists and member of the
> DotGNU core team I tell you to refrain from using the word "we"
> for referring to DotGNU developers from now on.

Ahh. Pulling Rank. The favourite pastime of many a bad list admin. I guess you
will be force-unsubscribing me next? I will not stop using the term "we",
and these are the reasons I give:

1) I can, and will, be part of dotGNU and Mono. I can work on two projects,
care about them both, without it provoking some kind of internal mental
conflict. I have no paranoid delusions about Mono trying to take over the
world/enforce a Microsoft vision on us all. The projects should enhance
each other, and I wish to work on both projects.

2) Who are you to decide who I can and can't identify with? If I choose to
identify with dotGNU, you do not have the right to stop me. I won't. You
can brutally kick me from this list if you like, but that won't change

3) The term "we" is useful for describing what I think we should do.

> However, you have (perhaps consciously, perhaps unconsciously)
> started to abuse the openness of the DotGNU development process
> for purposes of manipulation.

Because I have chosen to identify with dotGNU as well as Mono? This is
abuse? Partaking in two complementary open source projects is abuse? This
is madness. I want to see both projects work together. That is what this
openness is for, and I will continue to argue that case as long as you
deign to let me subscribe this list.

> This must stop.
> I hope you understand this.

No, I don't understand anybody who tells me I can't discuss certain topics
because their Mono-Paranoia has gottent in the way. I intend to fully
exercise my freedom of expression, to help dotGNU. I intend to fully use
"we" as I have chosen to identify with dotGNU, however much that may offend

I am aware that you hold in your hands the power to stop me from expressing
my opinions on this list, by removing me. My fate is in your hands, list


"Where laughing and smiling are not allowed"